Taking Liberties
September 15, 2009 9:03 PM

Obama Admin: Cap And Trade Could Cost Families $1,761 A Year

(AP)
The Obama administration has privately concluded that a cap and trade law would cost American taxpayers up to $200 billion a year, the equivalent of hiking personal income taxes by about 15 percent.

A previously unreleased analysis prepared by the U.S. Department of Treasury says the total in new taxes would be between $100 billion to $200 billion a year. At the upper end of the administration's estimate, the cost per American household would be an extra $1,761 a year.

A second memorandum, which was prepared for Obama's transition team after the November election, says this about climate change policies: "Economic costs will likely be on the order of 1 percent of GDP, making them equal in scale to all existing environmental regulation."

The documents (PDF) were obtained under the Freedom of Information Act by the free-market Competitive Enterprise Institute and released on Tuesday.

These disclosures will probably not aid the political prospects of the Democrats' cap and trade bill. The House of Representatives approved it by a remarkably narrow margin in June -- the bill would have failed if only six House members had switched their votes to "no" -- and it faces significant opposition in the Senate.

One reason the bill faces an uncertain future is concern about its cost. House Republican Leader John Boehner has estimated the additional tax bill would be at $366 billion a year, or $3,100 a year per family. Democrats have pointed to estimates from MIT's John Reilly, who put the cost at $800 a year per family, and noted that tax credits to low income households could offset part of the bite. The Heritage Foundation says that, by 2035, "the typical family of four will see its direct energy costs rise by over $1,500 per year."

One difference is that while Heritage's numbers are talking about 26 years in the future, the Treasury Department's figures don't have a time limit.

"Heritage is saying publicly what the administration is saying to itself privately," says Christopher Horner, a senior fellow at the Competitive Enterprise Institute who filed the FOIA request. "It's nice to see they're not spinning each other behind closed doors."

"They're not telling you the cost -- they're not telling you the benefit," says Horner, who wrote the Politically Incorrect Guide to Global Warming. "If they don't tell you the cost, and they don't tell you the benefit, what are they telling you? They're just talking about global salvation."

The FOIA'd document written by Judson Jaffe, who joined the Treasury Department's Office of Environment and Energy in January 2009, says: "Given the administration's proposal to auction all emission allowances, a cap-and-trade program could generate federal receipts on the order of $100 to $200 billion annually." (Obviously, any final cap-and-trade system may be different from what Obama had proposed, and could yield higher or lower taxes.)

Because personal income tax revenues bring in around $1.37 trillion a year, a $200 billion additional tax would be the equivalent of a 15 percent increase a year. A $100 billion additional tax would represent a 7 or 8 percent increase a year.

One odd point: The document written by Jaffee includes this line: "It will raise energy prices and impose annual costs on the order of XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX." The Treasury Department redacted the rest of the sentence with a thick black line.

The Freedom of Information Act, of course, contains no this-might-embarrass-the-president exemption (nor, for that matter, should federal agencies be in the business of possibly suppressing dissenting climate change voices). You'd hope the presidential administration that boasts of being the "most open and transparent in history" would be more forthcoming than this.

Update 9/16/2009: The Environmental Defense Fund has responded to the documents' release with a statement saying, in part:
Even if a 100 percent auction was a live legislative proposal, which it's not, that math ignores the redistribution of revenue back to consumers. It only looks at one side of the balance sheet. It would only be true if you think the Administration was going to pile all the cash on the White House lawn and set it on fire.

The bill passed by the House sends the value of pollution permits to consumers, and it contains robust cost-containment provisions. Every credible and independent economic analysis of the American Clean Energy and Security Act (such as those done by the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office, the Energy Information Administration, and the Environmental Protection Agency) says the costs will be small and affordable -- and that the U.S. economy will grow with a cap on carbon.

Update 9/17/2009: I've written a followup article to respond to erroneous claims from the Center for American Progress.

Declan McCullagh is a correspondent for CBSNews.com. He can be reached at declan@cbsnews.com. You can bookmark the Taking Liberties site here, or subscribe to the RSS feed.
Tags:
cap and trade ,
foia
Topics:
Environment
Add a Comment See all 213 Comments
by californiadreaming September 15, 2009 10:07 PM EDT
This is shocking that we have been "not-informed" by the White House of what might be a significant tax increase!
Reply to this comment
by jaybo101 September 16, 2009 3:06 PM EDT
Terrific! We now have an "AFFORDABLE" tax on energy and we're told that Obamacare will be "AFFORDABLE".
How many more "AFFORDABLES" can we really afford?
by velma179 September 16, 2009 8:05 PM EDT
READ THE UPDATE from Sept 16th.

Sometimes the Information Highway is a road full of Bulloney.
by ALBrainTrust4 September 17, 2009 8:02 AM EDT
RICK, I'M SHOCKED THAT THERE IS GAMBLING GOING ON IN YOUR CLUB!
by ALBrainTrust4 September 17, 2009 8:05 AM EDT
Update 9/16/2009: The Environmental Defense Fund has responded to the documents' release with a statement saying, in part:
Even if a 100 percent auction was a live legislative proposal, which it's not, that math ignores the redistribution of revenue back to consumers. It only looks at one side of the balance sheet. It would only be true if you think the Administration was going to pile all the cash on the White House lawn and set it on fire.

The bill passed by the House sends the value of pollution permits to consumers, and it contains robust cost-containment provisions. Every credible and independent economic analysis of the American Clean Energy and Security Act (such as those done by the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office, the Energy Information Administration, and the Environmental Protection Agency) says the costs will be small and affordable -- and that the U.S. economy will grow with a cap on carbon


THE US ECONOMY CAN'T GROW WITH A CARBON CAP IN PLACE UNLESS ALTERNATIVE ENERGY SOURCES ARE AVAILABLE. SOLOR CANNOT MEET THAT DEMAND. AND GROUPD LIKE THE ENVIRONMENTAL DEFENSE FUND OPPOSE USING ANY....ANY NUCLEAR.
by TXLago September 17, 2009 11:09 AM EDT
I disagree...we were all informed as a nation on January 20, 2009 when Barack H. Obama took the oath of office for US President. Our congress is not a friend to the tax payer either as the House passed this "Cap & Trade" measure. Wake up...this is not the end of hidden agendas and tax increases.
by payback108 September 15, 2009 10:20 PM EDT
But i will not raise taxes on people making under $250.000 yep you lie
Reply to this comment
by sj440 September 16, 2009 5:21 PM EDT
I'll tell you how to pay for it -STOP BIG OIL SUBSIDIES!
TAX BIG OIL!
And we all pay more for gas, hurts the poor the most

STOP FARMERS WELFARE!
And we all pay more for food, hurts the poor the most

STOP FARM SUBSIDIES!
and we all pay more for food, hurts the poor the most
STOP WALL STREET BONUSES!
And we all get a smaller return on our savings, hurts the poor the most

MAKE THE RICH PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE OF TAXES!

They already do, and if the taxes go up for them, they'll just move
making the tax burden on the poor go up.

Do you have any other solutions? Preferably some that
require some though.
by truth-b-toll September 15, 2009 10:26 PM EDT
I'll tell you how to pay for it -STOP BIG OIL SUBSIDIES!
TAX BIG OIL!
STOP FARMERS WELFARE!
STOP FARM SUBSIDIES!
STOP WALL STREET BONUSES!
MAKE THE RICH PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE OF TAXES!
Reply to this comment
by jimmyc1955 September 15, 2009 11:31 PM EDT
OK - So the administration - the one that was going to be the most transparent administration in history DELIBERATELY kept inconvenient facts from you and your response is to TAX OTHERS??

Dude - get a grip.
by ffoulkes-2009 September 16, 2009 2:33 AM EDT
Don't you get it? Every time you tax 'Big Oil' you tax yourself because they won't just eat the taxes...they will pass them on to consumers.
by Constitionalist September 16, 2009 9:04 AM EDT
Face it, we middle class are the only ones paying taxes. The poor obviously dont't because they can't. The rich don't because they write the laws, pay off politicians, and hire lawyers to hide their assets. It is time to rise up and throw off the yoke of oppression.
by brownville1 September 16, 2009 9:39 AM EDT
You forgot the critical one -

STOP BIG GOVERNMENT

then you won't have to worry about the other ones on your list. I am sure this was just an oversight - happy to help you out.
by agiraffedies September 16, 2009 9:42 AM EDT
Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it
would go something like this:
The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.
So, that?s what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. ?Since you are all such good customers,? he said, ?I?m going to reduce the cost of your daily beers by $20. Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.?
The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But
what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his ?fair share??
They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted
that from everybody?s share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man?s bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.
And so:
The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).
Each of the six was better off than before and the first four continued
to drink for free, but once outside the restaurant, the men began to
compare their savings.
?I only got a dollar out of the $20,? declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, ?but he got $10!? ?Yeah, that?s right, exclaimed the fifth man. ?I only saved a dollar, too.
It?s unfair that he got TEN times more than I!? ?That?s true!!? shouted
the seventh man. ?Why should he get $10 back when I got only two?
The wealthy get all the breaks!? ?Wait a minute,? yelled the first four men in unison. ?We didn?t get anything at all. The system exploits the
poor!?
The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.
The next night the tenth man didn?t show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something very important?.they didn?t have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!
And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes DO get the most benefit from a tax reduction. They also PAY more than the rest. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.
by lobodude September 16, 2009 9:58 AM EDT
You fool! Tax Big Oil. Do you know that they will just pass the cost on to the consumer which is "US". As for the Wall Street they are the same people who help put the wrong kind of change in the White house. As for farm subsidies you can thank LBJ & Jimmy Carter. I bet you do not know that Rich People pay way more than their fair share unless you have Gov't connections. When I made $40K per year I did not pay tax but now I make $175,000+ a year and I pay more than half my income in taxes.
by NJTeresa September 16, 2009 1:29 PM EDT
and what exactly is your definition of "the rich"
by kentcurtis September 16, 2009 1:36 PM EDT
Er, truth-b-toll, the rich pay for much more than their fair share of taxes. Do you know the numbers? If you did, you wouldn't say the rich don't pay their share. Quick numbers: Richest one percent pay 37% of all income taxes. Top 10% of income earners pay 68% of all income taxes. Bottom 50% of income earners pay just three percent of the taxes.

So let interpret that for you. 97% of all income taxes collected by the United States government are paid by the top 50% of income earners. Hmm. So exactly what does "fair share" mean to you?
by herbabec September 16, 2009 2:47 PM EDT
agiraffedies:
You said it perfectly! We do not want for our large companies to go over seas because we cannot face the fact that they pay more, so they get larger breaks. We have to stop the entitlement mentality in America. You get what you give!!!!
by mattbyers September 16, 2009 3:48 PM EDT
the rich already pay a higher % so what is fair? They already tax success.
by rednano74 September 16, 2009 5:25 PM EDT
@ truth-b-toll - you are brainwashed idiot loved by the Democrats. Governments already make more money from gas taxes than the oil industry has from profits for the last 30 years. $1.34 Trillion to the governments in gas tax v. $643 Billion to the oil industry. The rich already by a far higher share of the incomes taxes. The top 1% of earners pay 38% of the federal incomes taxes, the top 20% pay 80%, and the bottom 50% of incomes earners pay only 3%. And 40% of those at the bottom pay ZERO. You are definitely a sheep my friend.
by TXLago September 17, 2009 11:13 AM EDT
I DO NOT agree with any of your statements except the Wall Street bonuses...If the Farmers can't get help than our food supply will dwindle when there is weather changes that the crops fail...if the Rich are unfairly taxed they will take business that they provide jobs over seas and all thier profits will not help the US economy. Stop listening to liberal biased news and change channels from time to time and get other opinions. All I read here is talking points that are on all the main stream media news outlets.
by TXLago September 17, 2009 11:14 AM EDT
I DO NOT agree with any of your statements except the Wall Street bonuses...If the Farmers can't get help than our food supply will dwindle when there is weather changes that the crops fail...if the Rich are unfairly taxed they will take business that they provide jobs over seas and all thier profits will not help the US economy. Stop listening to liberal biased news and change channels from time to time and get other opinions. All I read here is talking points that are on all the main stream media news outlets.
by truth-b-toll September 17, 2009 1:03 PM EDT
sounds like you believe all the "trickle down theories"
maybe you need to give your self some more "though"!
by slownewsday_5 September 15, 2009 10:37 PM EDT
Ahhh, it's ok. Just borrow it, instead, like the Repubs would do.

Seriously, the dems and the repubs both are awful with all of the expenses...


.
Reply to this comment
by slownewsday_5 September 16, 2009 10:44 AM EDT
What will "they" do, Maj? Nothing. Just like they did nothing with Bush.
by sjc_1 September 17, 2009 1:00 PM EDT
I would prefer a Carbon Tax and a tax on imported oil. Corporations used to pay 40% of the federal budget 40 years ago and now pay 7%. It is time that those that make the most from doing business in the U.S. start paying a larger share of the costs.
by jimmyc1955 September 15, 2009 11:25 PM EDT
I love the fact that this is released at 9:00 PM on a tuesday night - so it can go mostly unnoticed.

Just like every other initiative by this administration, irrational spending for no useful purpose.

For the wealthy, elite, white, upper crust liberals like Joe Biden, Al Gore and the Kennedy's an extra $1800 a year is simply scotch money. Besides it will make Al Gore richer as his CO2 trading company gets all the contracts to trade for CO2 allotments - just like a little eco-Enron.

This is pure BS - Obama hid this from us - like he is hiding the real costs of his proposed health care reform.

We are ALL BEING LIED TO!!! He will bankrupt our nation and tell us it's for our own good.
Reply to this comment
by ffoulkes-2009 September 16, 2009 2:35 AM EDT
He hid it, but the Republicans have been saying it all along...Cap and Trade = tax on EVERYONE.
by slownewsday_5 September 16, 2009 10:45 AM EDT
"by FiddleFuddle
They just intend to fund MORE GREEN jobs krap that doesn't exist with it."


Gee, Rowdy, didn't you say you were leaving?
by localnet September 16, 2009 11:32 AM EDT
He lied to us? Where were you during the election? Where were you the past two years that the democrats have been floating cap and trade? Where were you when Bush stood against this? When the republicans stood against this? I could go on and on...

Obama has been on the cap and trade band wagon since its inception. Do you guys ever read or listen to anything other than the drive by state run media?

God help us!

Elections have consequences.
by herbabec September 16, 2009 2:51 PM EDT
I don't know about you guys, but I am tired of all of the "Jedi" mind tricks!
Obama: " I am not really spending all of the money....This is all for your own good....You aren't smart enough to have input on our country's wellbeing...Let the smart people handle this...Go about your merry ways...Don't worry about anything but the H1N1 flu...make sure you wash your hands....while we wipe your bottoms."
by Kylecoyote September 16, 2009 3:49 PM EDT
This information was NOT just released. If you'd watched C-Span just before Congress went on hiatis you would have seen the House vote which passed the House by a 'tweak'. Their version of 'Cap and Trade' (1000 + pages plus Amendments) was given to members at @ 3AM the same day as the vote and thanks to Representative John Boehner, who pulled a 'fillibusterish' move and read many parts of this bill out loud (with his comments)I was able to hear what was in this Monster. There are many more expenses for the tax payer beside taxes...there are to be panels for building permits that are now going to nationalize building codes and Sellers of homes will be 'grandfathered in' until they decide to sell. Then the property owner/seller will have to spend their own money to bring their house up to current code or they cannot close their sale. This is just one of many items that is considered in this 'cap and trade' as it is to be considered part of 'green housing'. So, I hope this information gets to the public so they can contact their representatives in the Senate, who have yet to vote on this. (Also, China and some other countries feel they are entitled to play 'Economic Catch Up' and are not willing to go along with this in their countries.)
by jsd330 September 15, 2009 11:26 PM EDT
No new taxes on people making under $250,000.00. Did Obama lie?
Reply to this comment
by rbseitz September 16, 2009 5:39 PM EDT
Don't say Obama lied. You will get repromanded and called a racist.
by swami545 September 17, 2009 10:00 PM EDT
He didn't lie. No NEW taxes - just higher OLD ones.
by woeisme1 September 15, 2009 11:28 PM EDT
Well my take on this is that Obama should delay even discussing this right now. Quite frankly I think it's overload for the majority of America.

I don't know but I get nervous when too many things are in the frying pan at the same time.
Reply to this comment
by jimmyc1955 September 15, 2009 11:30 PM EDT
so you don't mind having the old bait and switch played on you? You don't mind being told that it won't cost us anything all the while his administration KNEW this was going to cost us all dearly???

You don't MIND being deliberately played for a fool?

Your only worried Obama has too much on his plate???

Next time you walk down the street why don't you just throw your money at people - your to witless to know your being robbed.
by woeisme1 September 15, 2009 11:42 PM EDT
I am hardly witless. That's why I said that too many things on the pan make me nervous. Activity is fast and furious and things get missed even for those of us who pay attention.

And of course I mind. I believe I already posted that Obama should delay this whole thing. So what's your freakin' point anyway. You think I'm going to blindly defend Obama on this?

You mis-judge me. That makes you wit-less.
by slownewsday_5 September 16, 2009 10:47 AM EDT
"by jimmyc1955

your to witless"




It's "you're too witless".

Seriously, though, it does crack me up to see you call someone else "witless" when you can't even get your English correct. This is your native tongue, isn't it?
by Mikeus Maximus September 16, 2009 10:57 AM EDT
Hey, Jimmy... Apparently you are too witless to realize that you needed to put another "o" in the first to(o). (pat pat pat) Poor little fellow. Cap and trade is an idea that sounds good, in theory. In practice, it gets messy real fast... Any additional expenses presented to large businesses that pollute will simply be passed along to the consumer in the price of the product he or she buys. The inherent necessity to make a profit in a capitalistic society is what makes this idea no good for our country. There are other ways to reduce emissions, starting with transportation infrastructure. Our country is in the stone age with concern to anything other than our highways (which also need lots of refurbishing and expansion). Make railways for both freight and passengers more efficient and fast, and actively work to remove the negative stigma from public transportation. People will not use something that doesn't benefit them, so the service provided by mass transit has to be preferable to driving a car... That's the difficult part. But, if the government invests in the new rail system, and allows private companies to compete for passengers; then the product available will be determined by choice. The next priority is to completely rebuild the power grid, starting yesterday. Up to 1/3 of all electricity is lost in transmission. Even if we were only able to cut that number in half, power plants across the country could operate at a 16.67% lower output... That's HUGE! Why isn't anyone talking about this? I'm not an engineer, but I'm sure that there are ways to make power lines more insulated or conductive. Last, turn the desert SW into a gigantic solar farm, the upper mid-west into a huge wind farm, and find a way to tap into the ever persistent Gulf Stream (greatest transfer of thermal energy on Earth) by using deep sea hydro-electric turbines. Maybe there are some old oil rigs sitting around that can be retro-fitted to deploy them deep under water where the current is most consistent. Continue to come up with regional solutions like these, until it is possible to start unplugging the smoke belching coal and oil powered plants one at a time. Provide massive business incentives for companies willing to raise and invest their own capital, allowing them to operate virtually tax free for as long as they continue to re-invest all profits back into the company. Once they emerge as viable and profitable entities, gradually introduce a profit tax that will generate income for the government (and pay for the new rail and power lines). Let's tap into the American spirit one more time and make some money off of this ****.
by woeisme1 September 15, 2009 11:31 PM EDT
Geeeeesh and you guys act like Obama has already passed cap and trade. That's a long way off and your claiming already that your taxes are going up???? ROTFLMAO!@!!!


Awwwwwwwwwww.....you guys are soooooooo dramatic! You are all very good students of Glen Beck and should all recieve an award!
Reply to this comment
by NonKoolaid September 16, 2009 10:55 AM EDT
You must not be a parent. People are concerned about what gets passed on to their children. Yes I know this is probably hard for you to understand how people can love their children and want the best for them.... Oh thats right, you would have killed them before they would have made it into this world.
by Constitionalist September 16, 2009 11:05 AM EDT
People are already losing their homes. Do you really think an extra tax burden is going to help them? How about those who havn't quite yet lost their homes but are barely making the bills? How much worse will the housing market get when these new indirect taxes are in place?
by Mikeus Maximus September 16, 2009 11:37 AM EDT
hey, non-cool... You are on the verge of sounding self-righteous over there. Based on your logic, the tighty righties don't want abortions so they have enough poor and uneducated kids to send off to war. Have you had to make that sacrifice... as a parent? If not, shut your mouth. You have no idea how you would feel if somebody justified risking your child's life with flat out lies. Blabbering some BS about somebody automatically having a propensity to kill babies just because they are non-conformist to your conservative views makes you look extremely stupid. Take a deep breath, put down your bible and .308 then look in the mirror and remind yourself that you're good enough, you're smart enough, and gosh darn it... people like you. You'll be O.K.
by mutthut September 16, 2009 2:43 PM EDT
Talk about taxing before legislation passed, my power company is asking for an 8.8% increase to be approved by this October due to increased cost of power due to government regulation (i.e. EPA and/or Cap and Trade).

Link: http://www.azchamber.com/news/view_article.cfm?ID=380
by faceofus September 16, 2009 9:42 PM EDT
Now, instead of waiting until it is too late, is the time to let politicians know what the people think.
by jimmyc1955 September 15, 2009 11:34 PM EDT
woeisme1 - SO how do you answer the fact that the MOST TRANSPARENT ADMINISTRATION in history, to quote our President, is hiding facts from you so you won't actually KNOW THE TRUTH of what they are proposing.

You think because it isn't fact now that cap and trade is irrelevent.

I say if I catch you lying to me I will never trust you again.

Now how much else is he hiding? How many hidden costs in his other proposals don't we know about yet?
Reply to this comment
by woeisme1 September 15, 2009 11:37 PM EDT
Well now ya don't have ta get all paranoid now. Gee whiz.
by ffoulkes-2009 September 16, 2009 2:38 AM EDT
Better a little paranoia than a lot of regret.
by woeisme1 September 15, 2009 11:35 PM EDT
But yeah, you would have hoped Obama would be more forthcoming about this. I can't really defend him here.
Reply to this comment
by rightbehind September 15, 2009 11:37 PM EDT
It may be that were putting the cart before the horse. I haven't seen any solar panel manufacturing in my neighborhood yet. I'm for green but it could be this needs to be placed on the back burner until we get health care and wallstreet out of the way.
Reply to this comment
by jimmyc1955 September 15, 2009 11:44 PM EDT
Dude - this isn't about "green". this is about an administration that has an agenda that includes misinformation and deliberately misleading the public. Look up and see the big picture.

He hid this information to mislead you about cap and trade.

What is he hiding about health care? What about wall street bailouts? How about the stimulus?

Did you know most of the stimulus money has yet to be spent? If we are out of the recession why isn't it being pulled back in?

If 200 Billion if an 1800 a year tax, then 800 billion is a 7200 tax increase. Why are we spending it if there is no recession anymore???

We are being played for fools and your happy to go along with it.
by inketolstoy September 17, 2009 10:18 AM EDT
Given the administration's proposal to auction all emission allowances, a cap-and-trade program could generate federal receipts on the order of $100 to $200 billion annually."

The only green this bill is about is the billions of greenbacks it will bring to the Fed. No increase in taxes my .....
by jimmyc1955 September 15, 2009 11:39 PM EDT
No - and so if he has been proven to only tell you what is convenient for him to tell you and hide information that is materially important on this issue don't you believe he is capable of it on other issues?

That is what the argument about health care as been about - we don't know anything about this and we are rushing to push it into law.

I now know he has deliberatly lied to me. In the morning I am calling my Senators and congressman and demanding they vote no on any new spending until we understand how it will be paid for and who will benefit.

Fool me once shame on you - you won't get a second chance.
Reply to this comment
by woeisme1 September 15, 2009 11:45 PM EDT
Hey how can we be rushing what does'nt exist yet into law?
by jimmyc1955 September 15, 2009 11:57 PM EDT
Obama wanted health care passed before the August recess. THen he wanted it passed before November. Why the rush? From what I read it won't even take effect until 2012. Why must it be rushed into legislation?

We should be more cautious and transparent with 16% of the GDP.
by Aggies09 September 16, 2009 2:34 PM EDT
"Why must it be rushed into legislation?"

ummm...because they will lose control of the Legislative Branch in 2010.
by jimmyc1955 September 15, 2009 11:55 PM EDT
I read the stimulus bill. Money has been allocated to programs, R&D programs, highways form CA to Las Vegas that is committed money. Unless congress actively removes that funding those projects will still go forward - long after the recession is over.

My point is that this adminstration is making Bush look like a cheap skate with the way it's spending and we have NO IDEA how much of what we are told it is for is true.

If he hid facts about cap and trade what other facts is he not telling us? I have a feeling that he doesn't think much of the American people and feels entitled to lie to them to achieve his goals.
Reply to this comment
by jimmyc1955 September 16, 2009 12:00 AM EDT
Prediction - this story will disappear before morning and get absolutely no air or press play tomorrow.

The MSM (main stream media) has been protecting him and it will do so again but burying this story.

NYT will not even mention it. WSJ will be it will be dismissed as another right wing crank whinning.
Reply to this comment
by declanm-2009 September 16, 2009 9:46 PM EDT
Well, it's been almost 24 hours since you posted your "will disappear before morning" prediction. Want to admit you're wrong? :)
by hdc77494 September 16, 2009 12:01 AM EDT
Do you know why big companies are backing this rediculous plan?? Because emission allotments will be limited to current levels. That means any new business that has to actually purchase credits (current companies don't) won't be able to effectively compete against existing companies who got their allotments for free. The government is gifting a monopoly to every current energy company, etc. Worse, if the EPC calls carbon a pollutant, they can then regulate any site producing more than 500 pounds of co2 a year. Clue, that includes your local laundromat, steak house, and any office with a furnace. What do you think that will do to jobs creation? The $1700 listed above is the tip of the iceburg. What do you think the total will be when those controlling the monopoly start raising their prices because they have no competition? How much will that steak be when the restaurant has to pay a carbon tax to the feds every month? How bad can it get? In England, the government flies helecoptors around equipped with heat sensing devices, and sends an inspector around to any home that is leaking too much heat. The government then requires the homeowner to renovate the house to make it more efficient. Leave your house vacent and unrented for a few years, and the government confiscates it because supposedly you don't need it. According to the standards released today, US car fleets in six years will have to get 35.5 mpg. I wonder what a pickup will cost to tow my boat or your travel trailer. How much is your plumber going to add to his service call bill to pay for $50,000 pick up trucks, if he can find one. Alternative fuels? Did you know the government subsidizes the cost of alcohol by $2 a gallon to make it as cheap as gasoline? How about wind power? Think again, they get billions in tax credits and a subsidy of about 25% and their power still costs more than natural gas or coal.
Best of all, scientists will tell you that human caused CO2 emissions, which includes ALL human activity and ALL domestic animals, produces only 4% of global CO2 emissions. The rest (96%) comes from the GROUND. look it up, it's no exaggeration.

It's all about money, government power, and people wanting to dictate to others how they should live.
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by ibsteve2u September 16, 2009 2:28 AM EDT
When is "...the free-market Competitive Enterprise Institute" going to make a pronouncement upon the minimum number of giant corporations that it takes in any one industry to guarantee a "free-market"?
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by ibsteve2u September 16, 2009 2:32 AM EDT
lollll...or is that a function of the size of the "research grants" that the "free-market Competitive Enterprise Institute" receives?
by ibsteve2u September 16, 2009 2:38 AM EDT
Ya'll know that if global warming is the real deal, the Republicans sealed humanity's fate when they shoved inequitable free trade down America's throat, don't you?

When we controlled so much of the world's industry, we also had significant control over the emissions that were being pumped into this planet's atmosphere, oceans, and land masses.

Even if we had to fight the Republicans tooth and nail to, at least, prolong humankinds residence upon this planet.

But now, with inequitable free trade and the insistance of the "emerging economies" that they should get a shot at killing us all, too...well, we just here for the ride, now.

Here's hoping this train that we call "modern life" has an infinite and unbreakable track, 'cuz we've got madmen at the controls...
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by jimmyc1955 September 16, 2009 11:15 AM EDT
By the UN own estimate if we succeed in getting the entire globe to reduce CO2 emissions (which China, India and Russia have said point blank they have no intentions of capping CO2 emissions) the total benefit would be .6 degrees less warming in 100 years.

Now lets couple that with facts - the globe has not warmed in over 10 years. Polar ice caps have increased for the last 2 years. We have had no hurricanes this year.

All the dire predictions don't seem to be coming true. Why is the US the only nation to impose a tax on our manufacturing industries ensuring more layoffs and more jobs overseas to gain such meager benefits?
by platteman September 16, 2009 8:18 AM EDT
That is ok, olde Charlie R, the one from NY who writes all the tax legislation will take good care of it. He will make sure that only the rich, people making more than 25,000 dollars will pay for it.
Guess that olde hope and change is really working out. Hope we have some change left after the govt. takes all our money for doing so much good. 13% of our income for health care, 50% for housing, more for taxes, what is that about 55% in New York now and just think we still have to work until we get to be 65 or later. Love what the liberal left wing loons want to do.
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by rightstateofmind September 16, 2009 8:39 AM EDT
Say goodbye to more jobs liberals!
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by endurorob_4 September 16, 2009 8:52 AM EDT
Obama: Did I say transperency? I meant opacity.
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About Taking Liberties

Declan McCullagh's iconoclastic take on politics, the economy, and individual rights. (Iconoclast: From Medieval Latin "iconoclastes," and from Middle Greek "eikonoklast's," meaning image destroyer.) Sample topics: economy, politics, interviews, free speech, property rights, gun rights, lessons in economics, individual rights, interviews, technology, features.

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